biblelighthouse
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![[*]](./images/perspective/default_icon.gif) posted on 2/1/2008 at 02:59 PM |
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Public-school is a sin, according to Luke 6:40
There is no disciple who is superior to his teacher; but every one whose instruction is complete will be like his teacher. (Luke
6:40)
The secular school system, by definition, is secular. The curriculum excludes Christ from its pages, and the teachers either hate
Christ, or are prohibited from proclaiming Him.
The average public school student spends 17,000 hours being educated by the godless State. That is 17,000 hours in which the child learns that
Jesus is irrelevant when it comes to reading, writing, arithmetic, science, relationships, sports, history, careers, and virtually
every other facet of life. The child is taught that he/she can be academically successful, popular, and successful in life, without any regard to
Jesus.
If any parent believes that he can send his child to public school to be taught by the State, and yet not grow up to be infected with the State's
secular humanistic worldview, then that parent does not believe Luke 6:40 is true.
According to Luke 6:40, it is a sin to send your children to public school.
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 03:43 PM |
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I would suggest that given the context of Luke 6:40, i.e. after:
37 "Judge not , and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; [76
Luke 6:37 (ESV)
and before:
do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother,
'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take
the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Luke 6:41-42 (ESV)
It is not perhaps the best possible analysis to seek to apply verse 40 out of context to suggest that the vast majority of Christians in the West are
sinners for using public schools for thie children.
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 04:57 PM |
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Mike,
In Luke 6:40, Jesus makes a general statement that applies to all of life: "A student will become like his teacher." Jesus applies that truth to
the particular context of chapter 6, but that does not mean the same truth cannot be applied elsewhere.
Mike, do you agree that "a student will become like his teacher", or not? If not, then how do you explain Luke 6:40?
But if you do agree, then you must agree with me that most Christians are committing a grave sin by sending their children to the unchristian public
school system.
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 06:20 PM |
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Things can be applied in all sorts of ways but the whole point of that section of Luke is to discourage Christians from judging our brothers.
I could not disagree more with your conclusions, and indeed I think that coming to such a conclusion you are potentially being sinful yourself. The
clear meaning of the chapter is not to judge others, a potential (and fairly remote) meaning is that you should be very particular who teaches your
children, to then go on to judge others for letting the state appoint teachers for your children is a fairly clear example of mote and beam.
Do you not see the irony in your post?
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 06:52 PM |
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Mike,
1) First of all, you are being evasive, and I do not appreciate that. Please answer the question: "According to Luke 6:40, do you believe that a
student will be like his teacher?" Please answer the question this time, instead of sidestepping it.
2) The Bible commands Christians to judge sin in one another. Even in the "mote and beam" passage itself, Jesus says, "Remove the beam from your
own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye."
--- Indeed, I have removed the beam from my eye in this regard. I have renounced the public school system as entirely unbiblical, and all of my
children are homeschooled. Thus, I can see quite clearly, and I am able to judge sin in other Christians who disobey Scripture and send their
children to be educated by Ceasar.
(The only way I would be hypocritical would be if I put my kids in public school, but then told other parents to homeschool their kids. THAT would be
a case of keeping a beam in my own eye, while pointing to the mote in someone else's.)
3) Sending children to public school is not a mere "mote in the eye". It is a serious sin that needs to be addressed. Not only is public schooling
prohibited by Luke 6:40, it is even more clearly prohibited by Deuteronomy 6. Go read it for yourself.
4) Mike, do you have children? Do you send them to be educated by the State? Or do you raise your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord?
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 07:16 PM |
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I am not being evasive at all, off course I agree with what the bible says , do really expect a confessional Christian to say or believe otherwise?
Whether this statement has material relevance to public school is another matter entirely.
Where you do not see the irony in your position is that you are using teaching that you should not look to be judgemental to be judgemental. Just
because people may not agree with you does not mean that you should accuse people of being sinful.
I am content that my own personal position in this respect is in accordance with what I believe is the right course of action. What I can assure you
is that my views on your post have nothing to do with my own personal circumstances.
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 09:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
I am not being evasive at all, off course I agree with what the bible says , do really expect a confessional Christian to say or believe otherwise?
Whether this statement has material relevance to public school is another matter entirely.
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Ok, so you do agree that a student will become like his teacher.
And you know as well as I do that the public school system excludes Jesus.
Therefore, how can you say that Christ's statement is irrelevant? How can it be OK for a parent to send his child to a school where he will be
taught to exclude Jesus from virtually every area of life? If that is the way he is taught, and he therefore becomes like his unchristian teachers,
how can that be acceptable to you??
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
Where you do not see the irony in your position is that you are using teaching that you should not look to be judgemental to be judgemental. Just
because people may not agree with you does not mean that you should accuse people of being sinful.
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I do not accuse them because they disagree with me.
I accuse them because they disagree with God.
God has clearly revealed His will regarding education:
* Deuteronomy 6 - Teach children about God all day long.
* Ephesians 6 - Fathers (not the State) are commanded to teach their children.
* Luke 6:40 - Don't give your child a teacher, unless you want your child to become like that teacher.
* Proverbs 1 - Do not stand under the teaching of sinners.
Mike, God has clearly spoken, and I have brought forth the Scriptures to prove it. Where is your biblical defense for public school? What in the
Bible makes you think that it is OK for parents to hand their children over to godless teachers?
Have you studied this issue in depth? Or are you just "going with the flow" since the majority of modern Christians don't concern themselves too
much with this subject?
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SuperhighwaySpeeder
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 11:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
Just because people may not agree with you does not mean that you should accuse people of being sinful.
I am content that my own personal position in this respect is in accordance with what I believe is the right course of action. What I can assure you
is that my views on your post have nothing to do with my own personal circumstances. |
Substitute "abortion" for "homeschooling" and try making this lame argument.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeremy Conrad
Christ the King Anglican Church
Omaha, IL
WRUL.com
Men no longer know how to think, nor desire to do so.
For many folks, a conclusion is simply the place where they got tired of thinking.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -John F. Kennedy |
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SuperhighwaySpeeder
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| posted on 2/1/2008 at 11:38 PM |
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To put it in another perspective, READ THIS and then
respond again.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeremy Conrad
Christ the King Anglican Church
Omaha, IL
WRUL.com
Men no longer know how to think, nor desire to do so.
For many folks, a conclusion is simply the place where they got tired of thinking.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -John F. Kennedy |
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 07:43 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SuperhighwaySpeeder
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
Just because people may not agree with you does not mean that you should accuse people of being sinful.
I am content that my own personal position in this respect is in accordance with what I believe is the right course of action. What I can assure you
is that my views on your post have nothing to do with my own personal circumstances. |
Substitute "abortion" for "homeschooling" and try making this lame argument. |
 
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ReformedCharismatic
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 07:52 AM |
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Brother Joseph, you have brought up a very good insight. Would this apply to college, graduate, and professional education also?
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 08:37 AM |
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Joseph
I am not saying that you do not have a biblical argument for homeschooling, or even that I disagree with you, or even that it may be sinful to send
your children to public school.
What I am saying is that to take the verse that you did out of context and to accuse people of being sinful not only involves some torturous logic but
is poor exegesis.
As for the comment that:
Substitute "abortion" for "homeschooling" and try making this lame argument.
in relation to my comment that:
Just because people may not agree with you does not mean that you should accuse people of being sinful.
I hope that on reflection you will see how illogical the comment about abortion is.
My comment included the word "just", i.e. just because soemone disagrees with you does not make something sinful, the fact that it may in fact be
sinful is another question altogether. If someone does not agree with me that killing babies is wrong they are being sinful in killing a baby not
because they disagree with me but because they are comitting murder and there is a fairly clear biblical case against murder.
Now state education is a topic not directly addressed in the Bible, and as the previous post highlights there are at the very least shades of grey in
any argument against education involving non believers.
Gunslinging accusations of sinnning on complex subjects, especially on the basis of a pretty irrelevent texts is in my mind questionable. You might as
well start accusing those who have blind teachers for their children of sinning on the basis of the previous verse.
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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pitchford
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 11:11 AM |
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| Quote: | God has clearly revealed His will regarding education:
* Deuteronomy 6 - Teach children about God all day long.
* Ephesians 6 - Fathers (not the State) are commanded to teach their children.
* Luke 6:40 - Don't give your child a teacher, unless you want your child to become like that teacher.
* Proverbs 1 - Do not stand under the teaching of sinners.
Mike, God has clearly spoken, and I have brought forth the Scriptures to prove it. Where is your biblical defense for public school? What in the Bible
makes you think that it is OK for parents to hand their children over to godless teachers? |
Joseph, I'm sensitive to your argument, and I think homeschooling is the best option, but I wonder if you aren't forcing too strict an
interpretation of some of these verses, a little too dogmatically.
If sending kids to public school is a sin, on the basis of Deuteronomy 6, then so is going to work and not bringing your kids with you. Is it a sin
for a father to leave his children at home to be taught by their mother, while he works? Would you go so far? It seems like your hard-line exegesis
and application would demand it.
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 11:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
What I am saying is that to take the verse that you did out of context and to accuse people of being sinful not only involves some torturous logic but
is poor exegesis.
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Mike,
You have failed to demonstrate that I took Luke 6:40 out of context, and you have failed to demonstrate that I have misapplied it. Your bare
assertions do not equal proof.
Since you seem so sure of yourself, please do this for me:
* Explain to me why Luke 6:40 is untrue in regard to public-school. In light of Luke 6:40, how can a child go to public school for 17,000 hours and
*not* have his thinking affected by godless teachers?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
Now state education is a topic not directly addressed in the Bible
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You might as well point out that "homosexual child prostitution is a topic not directly addressed in the Bible".
The Bible doesn't talk specifically about "homosexual child prostitution", because it is so sinful and so unnatural that any Christian with half a
brain should automatically KNOW it is wrong . . . he shouldn't have to be told explicitly. The Bible DOES say homosexuality is wrong, it DOES say
prostitution is wrong, and it DOES say parents are responsible to bring up their children in a godly manner. So in specific regard to "homosexual
child prostitution", God figures you can connect the dots for yourself.
Likewise, the Bible doesn't specifically use the phrase "secular state education of your children". But that is because such a thing is so sinful
and so unnatural that any Christian with half a brain should automatically KNOW it is wrong . . . he shouldn't have to be told explicitly. The Bible
DOES say children are to be educated in an explicitly Christian manner from morning until night (Deut. 6), the Bible DOES say it is a sin to teach
your children anything that will cause them to stumble (Matthew 18), the Bible DOES say parents are responsible to bring up their children in a godly
manner. So in specific regard to the "secular state education of your children", God figures you can connect the dots for yourself.
This analogy is actually quite good, the more I think about it . . .
"Homosexual child prostitution" prostitutes the bodies of children.
Likewise, the "secular state education of your children" prostitutes the minds of children.
Yet, as you pointed out, neither phrase is "directly addressed" by Scripture . . .
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biblelighthouse
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 12:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by pitchford
| Quote: | God has clearly revealed His will regarding education:
* Deuteronomy 6 - Teach children about God all day long.
* Ephesians 6 - Fathers (not the State) are commanded to teach their children.
* Luke 6:40 - Don't give your child a teacher, unless you want your child to become like that teacher.
* Proverbs 1 - Do not stand under the teaching of sinners.
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If sending kids to public school is a sin, on the basis of Deuteronomy 6, then so is going to work and not bringing your kids with you. Is it a sin
for a father to leave his children at home to be taught by their mother, while he works? Would you go so far? It seems like your hard-line exegesis
and application would demand it. |
Good questions, Nathan. I admit that my list above is very brief and is not sufficiently nuanced. Hopefully this will clear up my stance on both
Scriptures you mentioned:
Deuteronomy 6
--- This passage teaches that a child needs to be taught to serve God all day long, from the time he wakes up, until he goes to sleep at night. I
think taking your children to work with you is a great idea, when possible. For example, if you work on a farm, or if you own your own business,
etc., you might be able to do this. But even if you are not able to take your kids to work with you, you are still responsible to make sure your
children are taught within a Christian worldview from morning until bedtime. Daily family worship is imperative. While you are gone for work, you
need to make sure that your wife (or the Christian school) is teaching your children in a godly manner, from a biblical worldview. If you make sure
this happens, then you have not disobeyed Deuteronomy 6, even if you yourself did not do all the teaching. In other words, the responsibility is 100%
yours, but you are still allowed to delegate.
Ephesians 6
--- Fathers are commanded to raise up their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. This verse runs in tandem with Deuteronomy 6. Fathers
can delegate some of this teaching to others, such as the mother, or a Christian school. But fathers *cannot* delegate the teaching to a state public
school system which excludes Jesus. Such an act would be in total disobedience to Ephesians 6, Deuteronomy 6, Matthew 18, Luke 6:40, Psalms 1, etc.
In short . . . it *is* OK for fathers to partially delegate the teaching of his children to others, but ONLY if those other teachers SHARE his
biblical worldview and commitment to Jesus. The secular state does NOT fit this description. Therefore, fathers are prohibited from delegating the
teaching of their children to the state.
Does that explanation clear up my position on those passages of Scripture?
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pitchford
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| posted on 2/2/2008 at 01:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Does that explanation clear up my position on those passages of Scripture?
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Yes, and I think I'm basically in agreement with you.
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hrothgleas
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| posted on 2/7/2008 at 12:35 PM |
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I've re-read the passage in Luke several times, and I still find the sentence about teachers jarring, in no clear way connected to the rest of the
passage.
As a 20-year veteran in the public school system, let me assure you that instruction was NEVER complete - I saw the kids for less than 5 hours a week.
I guess they resembled me in several ways - in their thinking - but I'm not at all sure what they were. Any student of mine who didn't realize
that I was a committed Christian was paying so little attention that they were in little danger of being influenced by me at all.
I know Joe is a excellent programmer. I don't know how important it was that he learned to program from a Christian, or just how the glories of C++
reflect the majesty of God. That strikes me as a fairly neutral topic, as does pretty much all Math. What's more, Joe was in little danger of
becoming an image of Bill Gates, because his parents consistently and intentionally taught him Biblical truths.
Curt Gleason
Member, Worship Team
Cornerstone Christian Fellowship
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Hilliard, Ohio
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Paleodoxy
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| posted on 2/7/2008 at 01:35 PM |
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Curt,
Please comply with the signature requirements!
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hrothgleas
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| posted on 2/8/2008 at 09:47 AM |
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Pastor, I don't know what they are or where to find them.
Curt Gleason
Member, Worship Team
Cornerstone Christian Fellowship
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Hilliard, Ohio
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Paleodoxy
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| posted on 2/8/2008 at 12:31 PM |
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| Quote: | | I don't know what they are or where to find them. |
OK just look at the bottom of Joseph's post above.
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hrothgleas
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| posted on 2/9/2008 at 11:45 AM |
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Got it - hope that's better.
Do you have any thoughts on why this verse about teachers appears in this context? I still find it jarring.
hroth
Curt Gleason
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Paleodoxy
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| posted on 2/9/2008 at 07:47 PM |
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I will have a look at it early next week. The Gospels can be tough.
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/10/2008 at 02:52 PM |
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My own reading of this section would be as follows, I will first put verse 40 in a bit more context:
27 "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29
To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to
everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to
them.
32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do
good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is
that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return,
and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your
Father is merciful.
37 "Judge not , and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be
given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured
back to you."
39 He also told them a parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but
everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log
that is in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see
the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in
your brother's eye.
Luke 6:27-45 (ESV)
In verse 27-36 we are told to Love our enemies, not in some abstract way, but in the same way as God loves us by being merciful to us, in saving us
when we are undeserving and unrepentant sinners.
The key here as that we are to act as our father (verse 36). This lesson is then mirrored in that as well as loving our enemies we are also told not
to judge others, in doing this we are of course not following God's example because he does Judge, the reason why we should not judge is that we
ourselves are sinful and therefore have no right to judge others.
Verse 39 explains this by pointing out that the blind cannot lead (i.e. judge) the blind, i.e. the sinful judge the sinful. Verse 40 then gives us the
hope that when we are fully trained (i.e. we have run the race and have finally left behind our sinful nature) we will be like our Teacher (i.e. God).
Until then it is explained to us why we should not judge, due to our own sin.
Verse 40 is therefore to be understood in relation to us being exhorted to be as our father in being merciful but not to judge (as our father does) as
we are blind, however in glory we will be as our father in no longer being blind, until then we should not judge others in view of our own sin.
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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Hippo
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| posted on 2/10/2008 at 04:03 PM |
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Jospeh
First of all I will attempt to take any "heat" out of my postings in this thread. In my previous post I have set out my understanding of verse 40 in
its context. I hope that this satisfies your request that I show the context of the verse.
| Quote: | Originally posted by biblelighthouse
| Quote: | Originally posted by Hippo
What I am saying is that to take the verse that you did out of context and to accuse people of being sinful not only involves some torturous logic but
is poor exegesis.
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Mike,
You have failed to demonstrate that I took Luke 6:40 out of context, and you have failed to demonstrate that I have misapplied it. Your bare
assertions do not equal proof.
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What we have is a statement to the effect that we will become like our Father when our training is complete. This makes sense when the application of
Christ to our whole life is understood, there is no part of our life that is not subject to God's teachings and therfore no part of our life that
will not be perfected.
The statement that:
There is no disciple who is superior to his teacher; but every one whose instruction is complete will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
is in this sense common sense and what is to be expected, that is after all the whole point of teaching. There are several reasons why the application
of this verse should be limited to its specific use at verse 40 (i.e. that we will be like (in some respects) God when our instruction is complete)
rather than applied to public schools:
1) secular education is never completed
2) secular education only covers partial areas of life, therefore it is only in the areas of instruction that students become like their teacher
3) verse 40 is not intended to be a fixed rule (like sin will be judged or that Christ will be with his Church) but it is rather common sense to
illuminate a point. I have had teachers that I have not had anything in common with after being taught.
4) our relationship with God will not necessarly be mirrored in our relationship with man.
I do think that it is common sense that a teacher will influence a student but this is as far as it goes. Verse 40 does not illuminate a cosmic law or
establish sinful behaviour. An argument could be made that verse 40 is obliquley relevant to a discussion of public schools but I feel that to take
this verse as a proof text to judge an educational arrangement is not logical.
Mike Pettit
London City Presbyterian Church
London, UK
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